Saturday, January 10, 2009

Compressed Music Test Ready

As discussed in an earlier post, I've prepared a number of samples of tracks ripped from CDs at different bit rates. They range from 96 kbps to lossless, covering the full range of possibilities that one would use for classical music.

There are six tracks, covering the following instrumentations: solo harpsichord, solo piano, voice (baritone) and piano, string quartet, voice (soprano) and (small) orchestra, and orchestra. I've stuck with familiar works, from Bach to Mahler, and I think most listeners will know all the works in question. I've tried to cover a wide range of instrumentations so you'll have ample opportunities to hear the differences (if there are any) between uncompressed and compressed tracks with different types of sounds.

(Note: one way of seeing how much the music is really compressed is to look at the resulting bit rate when ripping tracks to lossless. Lossless compression works the same was as ZIP compression for text files; nothing is lost, but the data is compressed due to redundancies. The bit rates of the lossless files I created range from 464 kbps to 729 kbps; this shows you that the _real_ compression that _could_ result in audible differences is only from those lossless bit rates to the resulting compressed bit rate. Even the lowest level of "natural" compression removes half of the data with no quality loss. For example, an uncompressed CD is 1411 kpbs. If it is ripped to lossless, and results in a 500 kbps file, that means that it was reduced in size by 2/3 with _no loss in audible quality_. If it is compressed to an MP3 file at 256 kbps, only half of the original data is lost, and much or most of this data is inaudible (in theory).

I ripped the music in the following bit rates: 96 kbps, 128 kbps, 160 kpbs, 320 kpbs and lossless. I did this with iTunes, in AAC format (which is generally said to be better than MP3, especially at lower bit rates) then converted the tracks to WAV, which you can listen to in just about any music program on your computer, or which you can burn to CD. (You can set up the exceprts so all the samples of 3 pieces will go on each CD, though perhaps not in order.) Converting the files to WAV files hides the bit rate at which they were ripped, since WAV files are 1411 kbps. In other words, when they are "de-compressed" to WAV, "empty" data is used to fill up the spaces. After compression, any musical data "lost" cannot be retrieved, but the file format of WAV requires that the files be at 1411 kbps.

There is no indication in the WAV files what bit rate was used to create them. HOWEVER, you could cheat if you wanted to, performing an operation that would give you a rough idea of how much each file was compressed (or at least tell you which was the lowest bit rate and which was the highest). If you feel you need to do that, fine; but I'm pretty sure that I'll spot whether anyone did that from the results. But I think the interest here is to _not_ know, to try and gauge what you think sounds best, then to compare that with the actual information.

I've uploaded these files to a web server. There are two ZIP files, the first is 522 MB and the second 841 MB. This will take you a while to download, unless you have a very fast connection.

To download the files, go to http://public.me.com/kirkmc with any web browser. You'll need to enter a user name (public) and a password (musicweb), both lower-case, after which you'll access a page displaying the files available. Click the arrow icons to the right of the file names to download them.

Uncompress the ZIP archives, then either add them to a music program, such as iTunes, or use a disc burning program to burn them to CD. You'll note that the files are labeled Sample 1A, Sample 1B, etc. After listening, for each sample (1, 2, etc.), provide me with a list rated from 1 to 5, 1 being the highest quality you think you hear, and 5 being the lowest. Any comments you want to add are welcome (should you hear something specific in a file which, perhaps, gives you a clue as to whether it is highly compressed or not).

When you've tallied up your results, send them to me by e-mail (kirkmc@mac.com), with a subject line of "MusicWeb Test" (so I can make sure they don't get spam-filtered). I'll collate the results, and provide an enlightening report telling the true bit rates of the different files and showing how well you all did in hearing the difference in quality. Note that this is a group of people familiar with music, and who should be more likely to spot any degradation of sound that exists. The results should therefore be better than placebo (or, more correctly, better than if the ratings were given at random).

Have fun! I hope you all find this challenging!

43 comments:

  1. Thanks Kirk - I am now downloading (very slowly as I am also listening to the Naxos Music Library).

    I presume that your report will provide only aggregated information. I would also hope that it will be possible for individuals to tell "how they did" but not how other individuals did. Some may be sensitive about this (of course, I'm not!) and we obviously don't want anyone to get upset.

    Your use of "placebo" interested me. In my day job I spend a lot of time evaluating the results of clinical trials (often comparing a drug treatment with placebo) and the principles I have suggested above would be somewhat analogous.

    If anyone wants to blog about how they did this should be allowed but, if it was very well, they might be unpopular and, if it was very badly, I'm sorry I don't know any otologists...

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  2. I'll be providing an aggregate report, but also I'll give the "answers" so you can compare with your impressions. I won't list each person, however, with their answers. As you say, people might be sensitive.

    Yes, the idea of a "placebo" came to me when I was thinking about another such study I saw on the web. People were given two choices of a number of tracks, and had to choose which was the uncompressed choice. The "better than placebo" answer would result in more than 50% getting it right; ie, the same as if everyone just chose at random. I think the results were 50.5%...

    If anyone wants to blog about how they went about doing the test, I'd suggest waiting until the results are in so as not to influence others.

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  3. Thanks, Kirk. Downloaded 'em all and just completing the first set. Great fun.

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  4. "Sensitivity"

    I once did a test where we were asked to blind-judge a performance of the G-Berg Variations without knowing who it was. I'd like to think that I have good ears -- but before writing in public about my impressions (sharing it with a group of semi-experts and experts), I was sweating bullets.

    "It's all too easy to end up with egg on one's face -- but without hedging my impression against the possibility of later revelation of the disc as something famous and well regarded, I'd state a.) that I was utterly unimpressed and largely bored by the performance which struck me as ... well, not even indistinct, because it was so distinctly blasé.

    V1 I thought this might be a Gould-inspired account, but in the end I felt as if Peter Serkin had been made the model upon which *not* to improve. I do like V28, though... that's got some positive sparkle that pleaseth. The opening and closing Aria are disturbingly similar in conception and execution."

    -------
    You can do the judging game yourself, here.

    http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Mus/BWV988-Mus.htm

    If you look hard enough, you'll probably find the post were the source is revealed, but then that would not be fun, would it be?

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  5. Yes, I recall when Aryeh set up that test. I didn't participate, myself.

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  6. Len wanted me to point out that for some people this may take quite a long time to download. I'm sorry for that, but the only way to provide enough samples and ensure that you don't know which is which was to make a large download. Worst case, you can set the files to download overnight. (Though you guys in the UK must have slow "broad"band; here in France, it would take me about an hour to download all that...)

    Len also suggested setting a deadline; how about two weeks, say the end of the day on the 25th?

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  7. Wow, confession time - is anyone else finding this tricky? I mean, I reckon to have keen ears, but ...

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  8. That's what's interesting about doing this. You think you know the answer when you just talk about compressed music sounding different, but until you actually try and spot the differences in blind tests, you don't have any idea what the truth is. :-)

    I've done this before, on my own, and I have to admit that it is indeed surprising when you see the results.

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  9. Arghh... this is HARD. I started on iTunes on the computer, then I connected the computer to the stereo, then I thought Kirk is having a laugh, then I burned it on CD -- and if it goes on like this, I think I'll take out the headphones. I thought I was just gonna pick the top and bottom choice (the rest be damned) and cruise on, but I think I'll actually have to do extensive back-and-forth listening with a pencil in hand. That alone is a worthy discovery. (But then, I have the same phenomenon when I compare SACD-stereo to Red-Book. Here, as in compressed files, the key is in "listening fatigue" after exposure to the music for more than 30 minutes. Or so I surmise.)

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  10. I don't buy the "listening fatigue" idea... But that's just me.

    Sorry it's not as easy as you expected. I kind of suggested it wouldn't be.

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  11. I am using decent quality headphones and listening intensely in shortish bursts, but still finding it mighty difficult to give a definite order.

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  12. I've had an instructive evening doing this. I plugged my Grado SR 60s into the computer and opened the files individually using RealPlayer. Having mucked around with .wav versus various grads of MP3 with my own pieces I do have a vague notion of some of the side effects of compression, but I do agree that the losses are sometimes surprisingly small. What I found interesting is how instrument-sensitive the effects are. In the old days of radio I'm told organ was one of the hardest types of music to broadcast, and so it would seem the keyboards (piano in particular, but that jangly harpsichord was also great fun) are still deliciously sensitive when being pushed through electronics of any kind.

    I've learned not to be too precious about sound quality, and now liberally store CDs on computer, much as I would have taped LPs or broadcasts onto cassette in the old days. There's just so much stuff and only so much shelf space - just as long as the experience can be re-created, which is where it all started in the first place ("Mary had a little lamb...", now there's compression!).

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  13. I'll give you a clue: the instrument that results in the highest-bit-rate lossless files (hence, whose musical information is the highest) is the harpsichord. I'm guessing that it's because of the complex harmonics. To be fair, I haven't tried with organ, so that, too, may be hard to compress.

    This suggests that harpsichord music would benefit from a higher bit rate than other recordings. Or not.

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  14. Oh, another thing about the organ is its dynamic range, which would make it hard to broadcast without compression (the type that adjusts volume, not the type were examining here).

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  15. Agreed, it's very challenging indeed. I used iTunes and Sennheiser headphones and planned to copy the files to CD as well. After listening to the excerpts I made my preliminary choices (guesses, more like) and then listened again. I decided listening repeatedly or swapping to my CD player wasn't going to change anything so I stuck with those choices and sent them to Kirk.

    I also felt that if i had to listen so often and over a long period Kirk has made his point - it really is very difficult to tell these files apart.

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  16. For some reason I was only able to copy Kirk's first file onto a CD that would load into I-tunes or a CD player. I had to split the second file and could see the individual files on the cds but they could not be seen by I-tunes or a Cd player. Those I can only play on my computer which I did not feel was a fair test. Last night Chris Thomas, David Dyer and myself sat down to listen to the first three sample on the equipment you see by clicking on the 'MW listening room' link at the lower end of the left-hand pink side bar of MusicWeb. The is serious kit so we were sure we would have no difficulty selecting the different versions. However as many of you have now seemingly found this is not a at all easy. We had a set of cards marked A to E on a table and we moved these up and down as we ranked each recording against each other. Our conclusion, if indeed we had one, was that we thought we might possibly have been sure about the 96kbs version. Having three people listening is interesting but makes it difficult to come to definite conclusions! Sometimes we felt, particularly with piano, that we could tell which we thought was the lossless recording but actually prefered the sound on one of the others. It was made more difficult because the original recordings were not state of the art to start with. The whole exercise rapidly became frustrtaing and listener fatigue set in and comments like 'I don't care any more' were heard. So it was obviously a very difficult exercise which leads to an overall conclusion that worrying about bit rates just gets in the way of listening to the music in that same was as the eternal search for even better HiFi used to do.

    Len

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  17. In regard to Len's comment, one point to be made: I did not try to find the best recordings I had. Len says they were not state of the art to start with, and that's true. There are a variety of recording qualities and ages - some of the recordings are from the 60s and 70s, which may or may not have been remastered; the Bach aria was from a live recording (which was certainly mastered adequately). But I felt that this gave a good slice of the type of music we all listen to: we probably don't often listen to state of the art recordings very often.

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  18. Well, I've sent my 'results' in and openly admitted in the email that after a while I was just about guessing randomly. I agree with Len that as I progressed I simply found myself just listening to the music and had to jolt myself back into 'testing' mode, which virtually proved to me that the differences were miniscule.

    I'd love to get some of the so-called hifi buffs from other forums to have a stab at this, as they're constantly whining about compressed files and saying that lossless is the ONLY possible way to listen to music on ipod, computer etc. I think I'll now lower my bitrate again and free up even more space on my hard drive...

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  19. Yes, I'd like to get a broader sample too. Because in my experience, most people who "claim" to hear a difference have never done a blind test like this. They play tracks knowing they're compressed and psychologically are influenced by that knowledge, and judge them to be lower quality.

    I'll wait a while longer before publishing results - I don't know how many people are going to go through all the motions, and I agree that it's a pretty time-consuming process, and is not easy. But one thing is clear: so far, no one has consistently found the "best" quality rips, and in many cases you've rated the lowest quality rips as being among the best. This is what I found when I did my own blind tests, and what prompted me to choose 160 kbps AAC for all my rips: not too low, just in case, but not too big either. I have _lots_ of music, and if I ripped it at 256, that would mean about 50 GB more disk space taken up.

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  20. I only downloaded the first file (samples 1-3) firstly because of my DL limit but mainly because I was sure I wasn't going to be able to tell the difference. And so it turned out.

    I quickly realised that trying to listen to all or a significant amount of each track was useless, so I picked a 5 second sample.
    I opened all 5 files up in my sound editing program (Goldwave) moved them to the start of the sample in the track and played each in rapid succession.

    Despite this, my rankings were almost random though I did feel that Sample 2 (piano) did have an audible difference between my perceived best and worst.

    It bears out my feeling that for those of us past 40 (and I suspect that is the great majority) mp3 is a perfectly reasonable way to store/listen.

    And I'm well past the days where I worried too much about the sound quality - the music is the important part.

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  21. I agree with David – it is clear that mp3 is OK and the effects of bit rates marginal up to a point but I have to say that I do think sound quality matters. I presume there are two broad components – the quality of the recording and quality of playback. With regard to the latter I suspect the effects of file type and bit rate across the spectrum being looked at here are much less important than equipment. I have a decent mini system on my desk and there is no comparison with the proper hi-fi in my lounge. With regard to recording quality, I am happy to listen to decent historical recordings (and do so for their musical value) but I prefer a decent “modern” recording (and define that as from the stereo era onwards). Of course, the music is the most important thing but I think we should continue to analyse and comment on recording quality, bearing in mind how we are reproducing it.

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  22. Yes... please don't publish anything yet. I've not had the time to do any of that listening in the last few days -- and I still have to get new CDRs to burn the second file on disc (which is more convenient to listening, than through my computer).

    Thanks & best,

    jfl

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  23. Don't worry, I'm going to wait a while...

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  24. Following Patrick's comment should reviewers perhaps declare what equipment (or perhaps an approximate level of) they have used when preparing their review. Are we frightened of doing this?
    You may remember Gramophone once made an attempt to ensure all their reviewers had equipment of similar standard.

    Len

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  25. This is what Dan, Jens and I were discussing in a previous thread, whether reviewers really should have a certain level of decent equipment. As I said, I remember an old tutor of mine who reviewed for various journals being more or less ordered to upgrade his gear if he wanted to continue.

    Well, we listed our stuff...

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  26. As Tony points out a few of us have already listed our setups. As a bit of a hifi anorak I'm always interested to see what equipment people use. I suppose one ought to have at least a good basic system that does justice to the discs we listen to; the problem is, how do we judge what's acceptable?

    Clearly a 'boom box' isn't good enough for detailed, critical listening but how else do we decide what is? By how much it all costs? That probably isn't terribly helpful, as carefully matched budget equipment can sound very good indeed. And then there's the really esoteric kit that costs a great deal of money. I've heard a few in my time and while some are astonishingly good others did nothing for me at all. I daresay my own system wouldn't appeal to everyone but I believe it reproduces music in a very convincing way.

    I wonder how Gramophone decided what was acceptable equipment for reviewing purposes? I know someone at International Record Review, so I'll drop him a line and see what he says.

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  27. I realise you have listed your equipment for the benefit of other reviewers in this blog but what I meant should we list our equipment on the site itself - perhaps in the reviewer's profiles.

    As far as I remember Gramophone got round the problem buy buying the same equipment for all reviewers. Lets not pursue that idea.... But certainly I met one Gramophone reviewer who was using a tiny portable CD player plugged into his system

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  28. While I have decent equipment, I think reviewing music is about the music, not about the equipment (with the exception of, say, comments about the quality of an SACD or surround sound on a DVD). When I review discs for MusicWeb, I most often listen on my computer (I have a good pair of Eclipse TD speakers connected to my computer, with a sub-woofer), or on my small office system (a dinky Philips shelf stereo with Wharfdale speakers). Sometimse I listen on heaphones: Sennheiser HD580s.

    I'd say that most consumers have "average" hi fi equipment, and that, these days, more and more people are getting below average equipment, unless they're very serious music listeners. Most 5.1 setups have very poor speakers, but all but the most serious music fans are buying them for DVDs, ignoring the fact that the speakers are insufficient for much music. (Though it's easy enough to replace the front speakers with better ones...)

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  29. "I'd say that most consumers have "average" hi fi equipment, and that, these days, more and more people are getting below average equipment,..."

    True as that may be for the general public, I doubt it's true for our readership--and classical listeners generally speaking.

    Especially since some classical music becomes completely unlistenable on crummy speakers/systems.

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  30. It's true that "serious" listeners have at least "better-than-average" equipment. But we don't know the demographics of MusicWeb enough to be able to say how many of our listeners fit in that category.

    This said, I'm probably at the low end of the scale, then, aside from my computer speakers, which were a review unit I was allowed to keep. My office stereo, where I do most of my listening, is a crappy bookshelf all-in-one. It sounds ok to me, though. Why should I spend a lot more money to buy a new one?

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  31. Well, this has been my point for some years. I always comment on audio quality of recordings, as I happen to believe that if the companies are spending millions on technology to deliver us stare of the art recordings, we should at least try to reproduce it on something half decent ourselves.

    Remember that BBC MM article, where various hifi 'makovers' were done for a feature. It turns out that at least one critic, Matthew Rye (pretty highly regarded) had a really crummy setup that went back to his student days. Even the replacement was only budget, although of much better quality. Maybe he didn't see a problem, but I wouldn't have trusted his assessment of the audio merits of, say, a BIS disc, based on that gear.

    I'm not suggesting we should all have high end setups, as that leads to its own problems (witness the vitriol spouted on hifi forums)and the search for audio 'nirvana' is indeed a frustrating, if not impossible, one but I do believe that a serious record reviewer should have a basic level of decent equipment.

    Len's suggestion of listing gear in the profiles might,of course, lead to some embarrassment and be potentially divisive (my God, are you really listening on THAT stuff?)so I'm not sure about that, but reading the Gramophone archives on their new site, especially John Borwick's much-missed 'Sounds in Retrospect' (which seems the sort of thing Len does at David Dyer's) convinces me that sound quality and, by association, equipment levels, are a real issue for reviewers.

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  32. Tony, I do agree with you, and I've actually thought of upgrading my system recently. However, I happen to live in The Middle of Nowhere, France, and to find a _real_ hi-fi store would require a 2-3 hour drive. The only things I can get locally (a 1 hour drive) are mass-market things; basically small bookshelf systems, which is what I currently have. So in my case, it'll have to wait.

    I do listen to most discs I review at least partially on my Sennheiser HD580s, which I consider to be audiophile headphones (and most others feel that way as well).

    Just a brief question, though: what would be the current budget for what you would consider a "good enough" system? (In GBP is fine.) Because it's been so long since I've shopped for audio equipment, other than an AV receiver / speaker set I bought a few months ago, that I wouldn't know. My office/den speakers are Wharfdale bookshelf size, which I bought more than 20 years ago...

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  33. I do.t think it would be useful to publicly list our equipment because then we shift the emphasis away from the music. I imagine most serious listeners - the ones who shell out for top quality CDs and SACDs - have above average equipment otherwise there's little point in spending that money on quality recordings.

    I'd also endorse Tony's comment about the vitriol in some hifi forums, where a rather unpleasant game of one-upmanship results in all sorts of unpleasantness. Most worrying is that some of these people are so obsessed with technology that the music doesn't get a look in.

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  34. Yes, Dan, and that's the same kind of vitriol that is often poured on those who listen to music in compressed digital form. ;-)

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  35. Ouch! (Sounds of humble pie being scoffed.)

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  36. Absolutely - in fact it's that very subject that is the most heated. However, the forums can be very useful places for picking up useful info., to say nothing of good used hifi!

    It seems a rule of thumb amongst buffs that 1K is the minimum for a half decent setup. If you have a decent source, then more can go on the amplification, with the lion's share for the speakers. I still believe that speakers and placement are the biggest factors in getting a good sound, as most CD players and/ or computer gear above a certain level all sound pretty good (or do they - first bone of contention among those audiophiles who have spent 10,000 on a CD player...)

    All I can say is when I go annually to the Manchester hifi show, the budget gear is what constantly impresses. There's the 'trickle down' effect from the companies' more expensive products into their cheaper stuff. Last year, for instance, the main hall had a setup costing 75K, with more big boxes than you'd believe (most folk wouldn't get it past the wife, or for that matter have a pad big enough). But upstairs, a very modest system of Rotel amp, matching CD and a pair of small B and W speakers (685) sounded wonderful with a range of music (piano, organ, vocal etc). Most of us in the room agredd that pound for pound we would easily take the smaller system, even if offered the other. Of course, there's loads of stuff in between, and as many opinions as you can shake a stick at, but there are many decent 'bookshelf' speakers available online (blind buying, I know) at a reasonable cost. AVI Neutrons are one of my favourites, diminutive but with wonderful detail and big soundstage, all for under 400 quid.

    Check out Hifi Wigwam, where many of these topics are discussed, often quite sanely, and there's a good classical section where I tend to post the most. One of the guys (Australian, I think) has what he calls his 'ultimate small speaker blog' - and believe me he's been through a few, but he loves opera, orchestral etc. so I tend to trust his views more than the rockheads who seem to just want as much bass as possible.

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  37. Tony,

    Thanks for all that. The point remains, however, that I'm not inclined to spend that kind of money (that's a lot, at least for me), nor can I access much stuff locally. I'd be tempted to buy online, just like I bought a good 5.1 system, then a new TV, because, in general, you get what you pay for in these areas, and you'll never be disappointed. (In addition, if you go to a store, you'll be listening in conditions that are too far from your real listening conditions, so it won't sound the same when you get it home...)

    That almost tempts me to send out a call for used equipment from this group. However, the power being different between the UK and France would probably lead to interference if I have to use a power converter...

    BTW, my Eclipse TD speakers - connected to my computer - sound great, and I can clearly hear the different between them and other speakers. But they're worth somewhere around EUR 700 or so. SPending that much for another pair of speakers is out of the question.

    PS: I can't find the ultimate small speaker blog; link please?

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  38. I get what you're saying Kirk, and in many ways agree. Those Eclipse speakers are obviously very highly rated amongst aficionados and are probably completely adequate. I just happen to have given myself a 50th treat of good old fashioned 2 channel hifi and love it. You're right about demo rooms and stores being completely un-ideal compared to your own listening room. You nee a home demo, which means a local store, bla, bla...

    FWIW, here is the link to the entertaining thread (a 3 year, ongoing one) about the quest for the perfect bookshelf speaker (I got the wrong title)

    http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.php?id=1756&forum_id=7

    Happy listening!

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  39. Egad! There's hundreds of posts!

    Thanks, I'll have a look through.

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  40. The last pair of speakers I had - TDL floorstanders - died a rather unusual death. My then two-year-old son stabbed the woofer cones and soft dome tweeters with a sharp pencil. Actually I'm rather pleased I don't use speakers anymore, what with placement issues, cabling, stands and/or ballast and spikes. Thank heavens for decent headphones. :)

    I would agree with Tony that £1k should get you some good stuff. My setup comes in at slightly less than that and I'm very happy with it. For PC listening I'd recommend the Creative X-Fi soundcard, which is remarkably good considering its price.

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  41. Yes, forgot to add in all this that headphone listening can get 'high end' sound without the hassle. I have a few pairs, the best being Stax electrostatics - fantastic sound, but lots of leakage, so Sennheiser HD25 closed back are often used on the computer at night.

    I virtually grew up with headphones, what with a small house and siblings, then had to use them for many years as a student, both in the reference library listening room, then in my flat. In fact, when I come to think of it, I often have them on my head many hours a day, with the speakers getting the odd look in when everyone's out! You really do feel 'closer' to the music, and increasingly I'm finding that the headphone session with a score is the really critical one. Mmmm....all that about high end audio, correct speakers....

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  42. Funny this discussion has popped up. In my post below I had already started writing about a set up and proportional money that should be spent on it... but then decided it was too OT and deleted my few sentences.

    I agree with Tony whole-heartedly... although I think that depending on whether you go with headphone or small speakers as the main listening mode, you can stay below 1K.

    There used to be the (post-Turntable) formula of spending 1/2 of your budget on speakers, 1/2 of the remaining budget on amplification, 1/2 of what now remains on the (digital) source, and the rest on miscellany.

    Then that view was anathema, for a while... but
    I've come right back to it, especially given the experience with my setup (see some previous post). Good source need not be more than $250 for red-book CD, and twice that much for SACD that also does a good job with red-books. More likely than not, you can just integrate whatever you have into a new system. $400, $500 for a good amp (more if it should be surround) where it's important that it's convenient, has the features you need (but not nec. more), and is powerful enough (with power to spare). [There was once a myth that the amp should never be more powerful [single wave watts] than the capability of the speakers, but that's nonsense. The chances of blowing a speaker with too much power are virtually zero, since you'd blow your ear-drum first. Blowing a speaker because of a peak from an amp that is overburdened is more likely.

    Finally speakers... a topic for some other time perhaps. Complex, even if you don't indulge in the backbiting and ideological b%^&*ching Tony describes. :-)

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  43. P.S. Headphones are, at the price of some ambience, the least expensive way to go HiFi. HD580 are perfectly fine (indeed: excellent, but then I *would* say so, having a pair... but I think other, less biased, ears would agree). But they do need their own amplification. I didn't like my HD580 and then stopped using them, before they were amplified. They made a sorry excuse for a limpid noise... then they woke up.

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