With the discussions here about sound quality and audio equipment, I realized that I was probably the most poorly-equipped of all the MusicWeb reviewers. I have a very good 5.1 system in the living room, but don't listen to music there often; I do most of my listening in my home-office. I had a Philips bookshelf system, improved with a 22-year old pair of Wharfdale speakers, and it suited me, because whenever I really wanted to listen to something and appreciate the sound, I would plug in my Sennheiser HD 580s.
But in the past couple of weeks, you all made me feel like Oliver Twist, and I thought I'd start looking around at stereo equipment. Remember, I live in a small town in the French Alps, so any trip to a store that sells audio equipment is an hour's drive; and, anyway, the only such stores are chain stores that sell TVs, fridges, mixers and audio equipment. But looking online today, I suddenly realized that I have an NAD 302 amp in the basement. I had put it there when I got my previous 5.1 setup, about three years ago. So I went down and pulled it out, plugged it in in my office, and...
Amazing! It is light years better than the Philips system, even with the old Wharfdales! I'm stunned! How could I have been listening with that system for so long? (Actually, there's a reason: it has a three-CD changer, and back in the day when I listened to CDs rather than digital music, I liked not having to manually change discs.)
In any case, I now have a new stereo, which will last me for a while with no expense. It's not great, but I think it's a pretty solid amp. I would like to improve the speakers, though, because I'm sure the age of them means they aren't as fresh as they could be... But, in any case, that involves either taking a chance on something bought on-line, or finding a store with a selection of good speakers. I'll see what I decide in the near future, and I'll see what I spot next time I'm in the "big city" and stop in at a store.
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Oliver :)
ReplyDeleteThe NAD is a cracking piece of kit. Sounds much better than it's budget price would suggest.
Great, that's good to know!
ReplyDeleteYou've put 302 - if that's actually the 3020, then it's a blue chip classic, and probably most people's true path into 'proper' hifi way back when...Still highly rated.
ReplyDeleteEDIT : I believe the 302 was the successor to the 3020, but Nad were (and still are) great amps and it will be leagues ahead of your bookshelf thingy.
ReplyDeleteTony
ReplyDeleteThe 3020 was the forerunner of the 302 and yes, the 3020 was a classic (even though build quality was a bit iffy).
Cross posting there :)
ReplyDeleteKirk - you didn't mention which Wharfedale speakers you use. I'm still using the pair of Leak speakers I bought in 1970 (perhaps we could have a contest to see who's using the oldest?). These are the floor-standing "Sandwich" model with 1" tweeter plus 12" bass driver, the predecessor of the Leak "600" (which added a mid-range driver, but oddly enough not any notable improvement in sound).
ReplyDeleteOther than, every year or so, rotating the massive bass drivers through 180 degrees, they give me no problems and still perform well, and if they aren't as "fresh" as they used to be, well, neither are my ears - my speakers and I are growing old disgracefully together! Maybe the same is true of you and your Wharfedales?
They're Wharfdale 504s. Perhaps, as you say, they're aging as well as me... :-) But I don't know, they weren't very expensive speakers when I bought them (less than 2,000 FF, or probably a few hundred pounds at the time; well I guess that's not cheap after all).
ReplyDeleteMaybe I'm just thinking I could have better and these are fine. They sound fine right now; I'm listening to a wonderful live Brad Mehldau album, and with the NAD amp, the soundspace is rich and transparent.
Dear Kirk,
ReplyDeletehave you noticed a difference in the performance of your HD580s between plugging them into the old stereo and plugging them into the headphone jack of your NAD amp?
I don't know the specifications of that thing, but I would venture to guess that it gives its headphone outlet at least a little more juice than a regular bookshelf system outlet.
Even if that's better (and esp. if it isn't), and while it might sound esoteric at first, I would suggest that a headphone amplifier could be the easiest, and most efficient (money/enjoyment) improvement in that setup. I know my HD580s went through a revelatory transformation once they were properly powered. They are incredibly hungry (very high impedance) and they need to be fed, to reproduce the music properly.
No, I didn't try that yet. But you're right; I'm sure it will make a difference. I don't know, however, that I want to spend the money on a headphone amp; I'd rather spend it on a really good pair of speakers.
ReplyDeleteI am thinking of a headphone amp too, but in Kirk's case I think a new pair of speakers would work wonders.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to be a given among hifi buffs that speakers make the biggest overall difference (plus placement, which is linked)and that a decent, even older amp and CD source will still perform OK. There are some amazing speaker bargains out there, as the 'trickle down' effect from more expensive models kicks in. For instance,I'm thinking here of the baby B&Ws, which sound wonderful with even a half decent amp, and are very well made. You should scour eBay and the Private Classified of Hifi Wigwam - someone I know there picked up a great pair of small Missions for £50 ! All these longstanding audiophiles have often built up umpteen pairs of this and that, so when they have a clearout, you can take a punt at a very low price.
Yes, Tony, that's a good point. I don't trust eBay for something like that, and I don't know enough about hifi equipment to really want to get into buying used from people I don't know. It's a shame I'm so far away from most of you (I'm in France); I'm sure some of you have very good speakers you don't use, having upgraded, and I'd be more than willing to trust any of you to buy a used pair. But shipping to France would be quite expensive, as speakers are heavy.
ReplyDeleteYes, shipping is always the biggest issue, especially as there have been a number of horror stories about poor packaging, damaged goods which then spark a dispute etc. That's another reason not to use eBay over 'enthusiast' sites, which are far more trustworthy.
ReplyDeleteTony
ReplyDeleteI use a Musical Fidelity X-Can v3 headphone amp powering some recently purchased HD 650s. I'm very pleased with the sound, which ticks all the right boxes for me, but I see MF have just introduced a v8 which is supposed to be even better (price around £350, I think).
Lack of space precludes sue of speakers and in any event I do much of listening late at night/early hours of the morning.
I do remember the Leak sandwich speakers, albeit the smaller version; my brother's first real stereo way back in 1972- Thorens turntable, Sansui amp and Leaks - lasted him 15 years.
I did something today that makes another big difference in the sound in my office, where I listen to music: I moved my speakers around, and reoriented the chair I sit in when listening. I set it up so the chair is in a corner, more or less, with the speakers further apart than before. This makes quite a difference in separation, and makes the sound more balanced (before the speakers were not an equal distance from my ears).
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying, sometimes you can make improvements without spending any money. :-)
Told you - room placement is one of THE biggest factors to getting the best out of hifi. I bet in a blind test you could move someone's familiar gear around and convince them they'd got a new stereo (me included)!
ReplyDeleteRoom placement is far more critical than I had imagined. Only last week, I was playing back test tones to try to get some measure of the accuracy of the configuration of my hearing aid. When I got up to 3500 Hz., I found that static interference patterns were being generated (by reflections from the surfaces). These were such that moving my head by no more than an inch made a drastic - and I mean DRASTIC! - difference to what I heard (it b*****ed up my test plan, big time!).
ReplyDeleteThe effect was not narrow-band, but persisted to higher frequencies requiring, as you would expect, different movements to hear the effects. It is also there at lower ones, but only became severe at 3500. The room is quite small (about 10 x 10 feet).
I always knew this happened. What I didn't realise was how marked it could be. In practical terms, it'd be a good idea to run a sequence of test tones through your speakers. If you find marked effects, then possibly the cheapest solution to better hi-fi performance will be a few damping panels, or more soft furnishings/decor.
The more I listen to my "new" setup, the more I realize that the weakness of the Wharfedale 504s is in the low end - I don't know what the specs are, but it's obvious that small speakers don't have a good bass response. Are there bookshelf-size speakers that have good bass? What frequency response do I want to look for at the low end? I'm seeing some speakers rated at around 66 hz and others down to, say, 48 hz.
ReplyDeletekirk
ReplyDeleteSometimes the bass firms up if you move the speakers away from the wall. If that doesn't work then it's either the speakers or the amp. What sort of load are the Wharfedales? And are you using decent cables (no not silly money wires but something better than bell wire)? Also, are they bi-wireable? (Not sue if the NAD has a biwire option though.)
They're not too close to the walls. The amp is not very powerful, but I don't know the specs. I have 1mm cables (I don't believe that expensive cables make a difference).
ReplyDeleteBi-wireable? Dunno what that means, so I guess not. :-)
If they're rear ported they should not be close to a wall or in corners (not sure with this model). If they have to be, you can reduce bass boom by bunging up the port. Bi-wiring is so subtle as to be in the 'foo' arena (in my book - some speaker companies (AVI) don't even allow for it with their terminals). I reckon you need to look at speakers first (should make a big difference) and only then the amp, unless you could get a good deal on both. Best small speakers for bass IMO are: ProAc, AVI, Epos, ATC - all these are quite expensive, but if you give us a budget maybe we can put the word out, if you actually want to swap ?
ReplyDeleteBecause bass is radiated non-directionally, you can improve the amplitude of the bass response by positioning speakers close to the floor, more if close to a wall, and still more if you put them into the corners of the room. However, these placements may exacerbate the static interference I mentioned in my previous post. Moving the speakers away from room boundaries does "firm up" the bass, inasmuch as the sound is less "woolly", but that is at the expense of amplitude.
ReplyDeleteIt is, as they say, something that you must suck and see! Let us know how you get on.
Tony, I'm willing to go for about GBP 300, but that would have to include shipping... And I don't have the space for anything but bookshelf speakers.
ReplyDeletePaul, my room is too small for me to have much latitude in position. They're bookshelf speakers, so I can't put them near the floor.
I think that if you are willing to spend GBP300 on a good pair of speakers, that will last you for the next one or two decades, you should be willing to travel to town and listen to a selection of speakers, first. Don't buy blind, with speakers it's just plain silly to do that... because there's as much a subjective preference to speakers as there is objective quality.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that the combined readers of MusicWebTimes could come up with speaker-recommendations in that price/size category... quite specific even, if you give us some listening preferences. And then you call the nearest store, ask them if they can arrange to have at least 5, 6 different pairs of those in the store when you come... and you'll have a half-day long listening session. Then treat yourself to lunch, think about it, buy your choice, travel back happy--knowing you'll be satisfied, aurally, for years to come.
Yes, that does make sense, though the nearest "store" that would have more than chain-store stuff is about a three hour drive. So it'll have to wait until the next time I have plans to take such a trip.
ReplyDeleteBut, yea, if you all could come up with a few recommendations, I'd be happy to see what you think is good. I listen to classical music but not only: I'm a fan of the Grateful Dead, so listen to a lot of live music, jazz, some punk, etc.
£300 should get you something very good, especially if you take Jens' advice and make a day of it - I've been known to drive a couple of hours to the right dealer.
ReplyDeleteCheck out the Best Buys on WhatHifi
http://whathifi.com/Reviews/Hi-Fi-Reviews/Hi-fi-speakers-Reviews/
some good suggestions, Dali, Tannoy, Monitor Audio, but it's a minefield so make sure you try it with your amp, and they may even let you do a home demo, which is ideal - if you don't mind the petrol bill on top !
Without knowing the exact setup you have, or you listening preferences, here are some high quality, well regarded models that are compact and fit your price-category:
ReplyDeleteNubert NuBox 381
Canton GLE 430
Mordaunt Short 902i
B&W 686
Quadral Rhodium 20
Magnat Quantum 603
Number nuBox 311
Quadral Arguentum 03
and, significantly below your BP300,- but possibly worth listening to:
Magnat Monitor Supr.200
or Magnat Monitor 220
If you do make it a trip (or combine a trip with this), may I suggest bringing your own amp? Even though these are compact speakers, some (the B&W, for example) still need a good amount of power. And it's in that combination that you'll listen to them, anyway. Ah, I see Tony already suggested that. Well, twice can't hurt.
Wow, aside from B&W, I've never even heard of those brands, and I do peruse the hifi section of Gramophone and of a French mag I read. Is it possible that many of these are brands I won't even find in France? I think the UK has a much broader selection of hifi equipment overall. Are most of those UK brands?
ReplyDeleteAnd when you say a good amount of power, how much? Googling my amp, it seems to only put out 25 watts per channel...
P.S. Maybe as a teaser, include the Focal Chorus 807 V (and maybe Triangle Comete Es?), both of which are considered very good and excellent values (~670GBP, maybe less, since it Focal is a French company [http://www.focal-fr.com/]). If the ones in your price category come near the Focal (assuming you even like the latter), you probably have a winner.
ReplyDeleteOK, so for argument's sake (and to better help me understand all this), I'm looking at the Focal Chorus 807 (that's a brand I've seen mentioned on a site here in France). It says it needs 25 to 175 watts; if my amp is at the low end of the scale, then it won't be enough, will it?
ReplyDeleteCanton is one of the finest producers of speakers for classical music, best known for their exceedingly neutral floor-standing speakers. It's a German company.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.canton.de/en-home.htm
Mordaunt Short is British:
http://www.mordaunt-short.co.uk/
Nubert a German specialist company apparently so successful domestically that I can't even find an English version of their site. ("Number nuBox 311" above is a typo... that's Nubert, too.)
product site
Quadral might be German, but I'm not sure.
product site
JBL (I forgot to mention the JBL ES 30 above) is American.
product site
Magnat, too, appears to be German.
website in engl.
Focal and Triangle (above) are both French.
Further comment on Focal Chorus: looking at specs, the 705V is in my price range, and the 706V is about as high as I'm willing to go. However, the former needs a subwoofer, something I cannot connect to my amp. The latter starts at 55 Hz; is that enough bass?
ReplyDeleteBoth are designed, it says, for "small rooms" which is what I certainly have...
Oh, this is getting confusing. See the problem? ;-)
"It says it needs 25 to 175 watts; if my amp is at the low end of the scale, then it won't be enough, will it?"
ReplyDeleteNo... not quite that easy or straightforward.
As far as the Amp is concerned, power is not just linked to Watt (single sustained pitch [sinus], not "peak output"!) but also how it performs [current in volt] at an impedance of 8, 4, even 2 Ohm... and what phase stability it has.
With speakers it's not just about output capability but also demands. It's worse when a speaker demands more than it can get than when an Amp could deliver more than the speaker could take. (Before you burst your speaker that way, your ears will have burst or your wife hit you over the head... so no worries.)
Focal Chorus 807 is not a very demanding speaker, according to HiFi magazines that measure that sort of thing (not the American voodoo-hifi magazines, mind you--I don't trust those one bit). Audio Magazine (worth for the pictures alone, even if you can't read German... it just stops short of having a fold-out of a "Play-mate" of the Month) quantifies speaker-demand and the corresponding ability to power of an amp. Focal gets a "59", for example, which is on the low end. Most speakers' demands they have measured [>500] are in the 60s, almost none below 50.
That number--like virtually anything in this field--isn't the gospel, either, but it should help doing a good job matching. A weakly tube-amp with a rating of 30 probably need not seriously be considered when one wants to drive a power-eater like B&W CM1 (83). Of the speakers mentioned above, the B&W 686 is the most 'hungry' with a demand-rating of 77. Which, if we assume the NAD to be somewhat similar to its later family-members (that is mid/high 50s), is not to say that it's not worth auditioning... but that it is worth auditioning it on your equipment.
I don't think that NAD has ever produced an amp that hasn't enough to power the Focal.
Well, interstingly, a student of mine has just upgraded (using a chunk of his loan !) from a Nad/ Focal setup to a much bigger, more expensive one. Now he's obviously saying there's an improvement with new floorstanders and a more powerful amp, but he did have the old stuff for some years and was quite happy. I heard some small Focals this year at the Manchester show and was very impressed (these were about £500). I suppose what I'm saying is try to hear some with your amp - it could be powerful enough even at 25w, but at least you'll get to hear the tonal qualities of the speakers, which are French after all. I(f they fit the bill you could upgrade the amp later if needs be. That's the path most of us have been down...
ReplyDeleteThe 705 doesn't *need* a subwoofer, it is just recommended... whatever goes below 65Hz is 'faked'. And depending on how well it does it, you won't miss much, in a small room.
ReplyDelete55Hz should be perfectly fine... even the 807V "only" goes to 50Hz. Such are the natural limits of small speakers for small places. As per "is that enough" -- well, that's why you would ideally audition them.
Tony, that's the vicious circle I really want to avoid: get new speakers, but need a better amp; get a new amp, but then I need new speakers. ;-)
ReplyDeleteJfl, this is getting confusing... See, I don't want to have to do all this research, but just want to get new speakers. (Or maybe I should just leave well enough alone, since the ones I have _do_ sound quite good as it is.)
Re the subwoofer: if the manufacturer says it needs one, then it probably does. (I mentioned elsewhere that I have Eclipse TD speakers connected to my computer; without a subwoofer they sound like there's no "meat" in the sound.)
ReplyDeleteEven if I listen to speakers in a showroom, that won't approximate the room in which I listen to music, which is mostly hard surfaces. How does that affect sound? It's just walls and desks and bookshelves...
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ReplyDeleteYes, surface does influence sound. But not as drastically as the speaker (!) does. :-)
ReplyDeleteBookshelves are "soft" surfaces, for all practical purposes. (Unless you collect phone-books of identical size, in which case the seamless backs would be like a wall.) So it sounds like your room is "average", neither too 'hard' or too 'soft'. Most speakers work well with that... and if it were to make a difference, you could always put a carpet in. But that's minute stuff compared to the actual sound of the speaker.
Sure, it might be frustrating to think of what goes into a choice of speaker. But considering it should be an investment for 15, 20 years--longer than any car will last you, or great kitchen knife (I obsess about those, too), it's not unreasonable to put some effort in. And in the end, it's not that complicated:
"Listen before you buy" is what it comes down to. All the other stuff we've been talking about is just preliminary matter, so that you can advice the audio-store which speakers they should try to have ready for your audition. In the end it's just half a day of listening to music, treating yourself to lunch, and the 6 hour travel time. :-)
As has been hinted at, "listening before you buy", anywhere other than in your own listening room, may be misleading. Really, it will be useful only for assessing the relative merits of different speakers, and even then with caveats, e.g. your order of preference can be different for different rooms.
ReplyDeleteThe figures quoted for frequency response are (or at least were) the 6 dB. roll-off points (e.g. "50 Hz." means that at that frequency the response is 6 dB. down on the general level in the mid-range. So, if you want to really hear such low frequencies (rather than letting your ear/brain system synthesise them from their perceived partials), you're going to need a speaker with a very low bass limit. Then your problem will be that in a small room these frequencies will be heavily damped, so you'll need a more powerful amp, et cetera.
So, before parting with cash, you should do a couple of experiments. First, TRY putting your bookshelf speakers on the floor, not flat but inclined so that they "point" towards where your head will be when you're listening. For the experimental purpose, just select some books to prop them up! If it does the trick then, apart from sorting out some proper supports, you'll have saved yourself some brass. If it doesn't, then try to borrow (locally) a pair of speakers with a nominally greater bass extension, and see if they are noticeably better. If neither of these tests comes up trumps, you'll know that the desired extra bass is going to be 'orribly expensive.